In this exciting podcast episode, “Jack Nasher Stanford, Munich, Montabaur,” we talked about Nasher’s work in Oxford at the Stanford University campus, among other things. What are the differences between universities in the new world and the old? What made his “Deal Dynamics” course one of the most popular on the Oxford campus? But it’s also about cultural and structural differences, political correctness and his encounter with Donald Trump’s China dealmaker Robert Lightizer.
TWO TOP UNIVERSITIES CONNECT THE NEW AND OLD WORLDS
The American Stanford University in sunny California is just 129 years young. Since 2011, it has been the undisputed second best university in the world. Benefiting from its proximity to Silicon Valley, Stanford has produced many founders of well-known IT companies (Google, Yahoo). Since 1982, Stanford has operated satellite campuses at ten universities around the world under the name Bing Overseas Studies Program. This program allows Stanford students to study or intern abroad.
Being part of Oxford University is also high on the list of priorities for the most modern American.
The most popular campus abroad last semester was Oxford. This is very interesting because Oxford University, which is classically oriented towards the humanities, is a stark contrast to Stanford. This difference can also be seen in its age — Oxford was founded in the 12th century and is therefore the oldest English-speaking university in the world. The demand is very high worldwide, so it is very hard to get accepted there. This is also reflected in the students, who are consistently very good.
DEAL DYNAMICS — ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR COURSES AT OXFORD
Jack Nasher’s course was voted one of the two most popular courses by students last semester. Importantly, the course was interdisciplinary, so it had to be as interesting to business students as it was to chemists and musicians. At the same time, Stanford had requirements for Jack Nasher that the course also be scientific enough. The commitment, which was originally agreed for one semester, has already been extended twice. How it will continue now, however, is up in the air due to Corona.
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS AS A MINEFIELD
Political correctness has increased massively in recent years — in England, too, but especially in the USA. This is sometimes very uncomfortable. The idea of a study that women negotiate less than men has led to negative feedback.
You already think about whether you can say that now
Even presentations that were used just a few years ago now make you look twice. As good as the students are and it makes you proud to be a part of Stanford, it does take away some of the levity. The question is whether it has brought us closer to the real goal — equality for all people. In any case, diversity should not mean that everyone thinks the same and only looks different.
TRUMP’S CHINA DEALMAKER FOR JACK NASHER’S STANFORD STUDENTS
Jack Nasher invited Donald Trump’s right-hand man on negotiations to the Oxford campus. Escorted by the Secret Service, Robert Lightizer gave a lecture to a select group. A cultural difference, because such caliber of people do not regularly pass by at German universities.
PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES VERSUS STATE FAITH
Stanford is a private university and the second best university in the world — albeit with an annual budget of $6.8 billion. As a professor at the private Munich Business School, Jack Nasher knows that there are major cultural differences here, too. In Germany, people tend to believe in the state, and public universities receive millions in support, while private universities receive no support at all. An often overlooked argument in favor of private universities is that the student is something of a customer there — and that’s why the university does everything it can to ensure that each individual is optimally supported.
Why should a bus driver use his tax dollars to fund my studies?
That funding our universities also has something to do with equity goes a step further and stimulates a discussion that is perhaps long overdue. What do you think?
JACK NASHERS STANFORD PROFILE
The interview was conducted by Mirko Herrmann of NEXTIM Inbound marketing
INTERESTING LINKS
Jack Nasher Stanford Profiles
TRANSCRIPTION OF THE PODCAST “JACK NASHER STANFORD, MUNICH, MONTABAUR
I: Great. Yes, hello, dear Jack Nasher, for the third time this year on the podcast.
B: Hello, my dear, how are you?
I: Everything is fine so far. We are, let’s say, out of the very deep valley of Corona tears hopefully soon — we can already see the next one coming, but of course we remain optimistic. And I think our listeners are looking forward to getting some information directly from you again today. Yes, Jack, you are Stanford University faculty member in the Oxford program. And of course we’ve heard a lot of good things about it. And I would be very interested to hear what you have to report from your perspective. Yes, what does that look like? What do you do there in concrete terms? How does it work in England compared to Munich, where you are a professor? But also to an American university, Stanford, where you yourself used to work?
B: That was a very interesting possibility, because I wanted to go back to Oxford. Because I had studied there and then also taught, my first so to speak beginnings as a tutor. There is a program in Oxford from Stanford University, the so-called Bing Overseas Program, so Stanford University has at, I think, 12 other campuses, so still in New York, in Madrid and so on, campuses abroad for their students who can do their semester abroad or stay longer, or even a whole year or I think some are even longer there. And Oxford is just one of those. That’s been around for a couple of decades now and it’s the most popular of them all. And also the one where it’s the hardest to get in. That is, the students are very good, the Stanford students that are there. And it’s actually quite interesting because before, when it started, Oxford had quite little interest in Stanford, in any American, relatively new university. That has changed completely, because of the insane success of Silicon Valley and Stanford is at the very, very top of all the rankings. I mean, it’s relatively young compared to Harvard or Yale, it’s not an Ivy League university, it’s from the late, just over 100 years old, and it’s gone crazy. And is just very much courted in Oxford. The Stanford students who are in Oxford are also members of Oxford University in the time they are there, they are assigned to a college. And the lecturers just as well. Was now also in a college now some years. And this is practically a campus abroad of Stanford University. Which is quite interesting because it’s practically two really top universities combined. And the difference is interesting. Stanford is very Silicon Valley, quite IT and start-up oriented. And Oxford is more of a classical humanities university. And that’s also interesting, this contrast.
I: Yes, I also imagine it to be very exciting, these combinations, yes, from the, we basically had the new and the old world together on one campus, yes, Oxford University as the oldest English-speaking university in the world. You just brought it up, Stanford just 100 years. Oxford I looked up again, verifiable since the 12th century. So it has.
B: Yeah, I mean, you have to say so in, (unv.) College has a building called the New Building. That’s older, significantly older than Stanford University. That’s sometime from the nineties. That’s just under 200 years old, (unv.) years old. And that’s still the New Building. That you really have that in perspective. Everything is very old, but of course the university always tries to be very modern and to adapt. It does that as well. I mean, there has been a business school for a few years now, where I say business school, which I was also at. And in that respect, it’s keeping up with the times somewhere, but of course the mindset is somewhat different than (unv.).
I: You have already mentioned many points. I have a few very specific questions about it. Namely, you talked about the most popular campus abroad. How is that measured? So how do you determine what the most popular campus is?
B: Well, the highest, simply the highest number of applicants and the highest rejection rate. That is, the students just, so yes, you can go to Madrid, you can go to Cape Town, Kyoto and so on. But Oxford is the campus with the highest number of applications. It’s not subject-specific, but every bachelor student, i.e. interdisciplinary at Stanford, can apply, but actually, because it’s so hard to get into Oxford, which is certainly also due to the name, I mean, being part of Oxford University is also very popular with the most modern Americans. That’s why it’s such a very special, so New York is certainly also popular, but it is of course, by the way in New York I also presented my, in the Stanford campus I presented my book, “Convinced”, when it came out in America. They kindly made that available to me. But anyway, of course it’s nicer to be in Oxford for many people. And that’s why it’s very, very hard to get in. It just shows in the students. Well, they are really top students, yes.
I: Your course is the most popular course. What is it called? And what specifically do you do there with your student? What do they learn?
B: Yes, exactly. The course was actually the most popular course of the whole semester last year along with another one. Actually, my Appointment was only for one semester, but has been extended twice now as well.
I: Which is already extraordinary.
B: Which is unusual and which put me in a bit of a time crunch, because I’m a professor in Munich and I have to reconcile everything and I still have my, especially my negotiating institute. That was not so easy last time. And now it’s written in the stars whether it will continue at all, because at the moment everything is on ice because of the Corona situation. Yes, my course was, “Deal Dynamics” it was called. So it’s good old negotiating. And I adapted it a little bit, of course, but the important thing is that it’s interdisciplinary. That is, are not business students necessarily, so can also be, but it can, they can study anything. Yes, that is, it must be so that it is for everyone there just also, puts a lot of emphasis on the academic.
I: Yes, I also find what you say interesting, that it doesn’t just have to be business economists, but that people from a wide variety of backgrounds and interests can be, Yes, especially
B: Yes.
I: but then also to be interested in the subject of negotiations. What does that mean for the mixture? Or what kind of people are you dealing with in the course?
B: Yes, so actually, so it’s really (unv.) from chemists to musicians. So really quite crazy. But you also have to be careful, that’s actually so, the political correctness in England also, but in America is even much more widespread. That is, it is to, so you have to, which is also very uncomfortable for me sometimes, because I can’t say some things at all. So actually there are studies that show that women negotiate less than men, yes. And if you bring such a study, yes, I have now done in my one course, then actually came afterwards negative feedback, so after the motto: yes, that’s sexist, yes. Whereas that is just a study result, yes. So that is already, it moves a very, partly that one really thinks three times whether one makes a joke, which is actually harmless, think, is actually harmless, but many things, also if I mean, one takes one also lectures here, which one had a few years ago and takes there again a few slides and things, which I said five years ago, which I would not say today so, yes. And especially in America or at American universities and also at Oxford in the meantime, you really have to be careful. That’s actually minefield. So that’s another thing. As good as the students are, as proud as I am and as happy as I am that I’m back in Oxford and that I’m now even part of Stanford, that’s one thing that really gets to me and I think that somehow, yes, it takes away a bit of the lightness. But that creeps in more slowly in Germany, fortunately, I realize, but it creeps in here as well.
I: Exactly. That would be my next question. Namely, we are on a similar path, yes, in terms of dealing with these issues, equality in every form, yes, of verbalization. And there is also criticism, but I already have the impression that this, yes, will gradually prevail. And the whole thing is not supposed to be ideologically loaded, but it has a goal, actually. And that’s where I ask myself the question, since you’re looking beyond the end of your nose: does it bring anything? Has it changed anything positive for women? That’s basically what it’s all about, isn’t it?
B: Yes, so I, yes, well, women or others, so to speak, other skin colors or — is it still allowed to say that? I don’t know at all. It leads to the fact that, as Peter Thiel, the investor, German-American investor once said, that diversity actually only means that everyone looks different, but thinks exactly the same, yes. And that (unv.) diversity actually can’t be, yes. Diversity must also mean that you can cope with the fact that someone at Stanford, for example, likes Trump, yes. That just has to be okay. But no, that’s not okay. So that’s really, now regardless of what I think or someone else thinks. So I had there for example, and I mean, that’s a very good thing about American universities, they do a lot for their students. So that’s incredible in part. So yes, someone wants to play a musical instrument, says: yes, I would like to play the violin. And then they get you a violin, yes. Yes, that’s incredible. You also had a budget and so on, and I also had, there was a lecture by Robert Lighthizer in Oxford (unv.).
I: Donald Trump’s joiner dealmaker.
B: Exactly. That’s one of the biggest negotiators in the U.S., let’s say. So he was a partner in the, at Skadden, he’s already, for Ronald Reagan he was U.S. trade representative and negotiated trade agreements. Now he is leading the China negotiations. A very experienced person. And I invited him to join us. It was also interesting that he came with Secret Service, it was a huge fuss. (unv.) he only came because I was also at Skadden. I mean, I did my clerkship, both were at Skadden, that was the deciding point. Interesting, yes.
I: Not bad, yes, so.
B: Does he otherwise think, well, he has so much to do and is so busy. But quite interesting and a likeable, very American type, yes. (unv.) Simple-working-class-American, that’s what he fights for and that’s what he negotiates for. And that was not easy, so to speak, to argue that. Yes, how does Trump now, I mean, he’s on the phone three times a day with Trump, is Trump’s right hand so to speak in negotiations and so on. But then that was also okay, I have to say. So and it was also very nice. So he was just with us, we gave a small reception there. So really only for 10, 15 people. So it was really very, very small, relatively late in the evening, because he was giving another lecture. That’s something great, of course. And that’s what makes Oxford or other top universities, what I liked so much, even when I studied there, that you have incredible caliber of people who come by all the time, yes. And also, who like to be invited, because you like to come to Oxford and be a guest there.
I: Yes, that is a culture that simply does not exist at German universities or colleges. Right?
B: No, it’s more difficult to do that. I mean, there are very big structural differences. I mean, you also have to say Stanford is a private university, just like Harvard is a private university, Yale is a private university. And in Germany, the private ones, well I’m at the private university, at Munich Business School, that’s just still a long way, yes. Because in Germany, people tend to still believe in the state and say, well, the state universities, which, by the way, receive hundreds of millions, the LMU in Munich alone or the TU, hundreds of millions. We don’t get anything and yet in Germany it’s somehow treated stepmotherly. It’s very clear. So there are very big structural differences. That would take us too far now. But in any case, in America and in general there is this culture that the university also does something for you and so on, because you are also a customer in principle and not a supplicant who has to stand in line a thousand times to get some kind of stamp. That’s a very positive thing, in my opinion, yes.
I: Definitely, yes. You have already mentioned the differences between the students at the various locations. I would be interested to know again what your perception is when you commute or travel between England and Munich. Yes, what do you think is the most significant difference between the typical student in England and the typical student in Munich?
B: I don’t know England very well, I only know Oxford and London in principle. I’ve only been there, but it is of course the case that in Oxford, you just have to say, the best of the best go there, because simply, I mean now, if a Chinese or an Indian comes to Oxford, a lot must have happened. Either he’s very rich, if he’s going to, but, whereas in Oxford you can’t buy your way in either. Or, so and he must be just insanely good, yes, because just when he comes now so some Chinese village, so until he makes his way to Oxford. There are so many, so millions of Chinese who also want to go there, yes. It’s so much easier for a German because we have so much less competition, so to speak. If someone from a Chinese province comes to Oxford, he must be brilliant, you can’t say otherwise. And what the university, I mean, at the end of the day you’re sitting somewhere in the, in the library or on your laptop, yes, everyone is boiling with water, but what makes the, what makes this university so good is: the people who are attracted by it. In Munich, we also have excellent students at the Munich Business School, but we also have students who are not so good. So there is a disparity, which is immense and which does not, simply does not exist in Oxford, yes. So you just have to say that. The level, the average level, so to speak, is very, very high.
I: I see.
B: And these, I have taught at many universities and what I have seen is that simply this consistency of quality, yes, that doesn’t mean that they are all geniuses, but in principle, in Oxford there are just few toots, yes. You have to, yes.
I: Quite simply and comprehensibly spoken.
B: Exactly.
I: Yes.
B: And what I see in American students, the ones I’ve had, they’re very, very driven and often very, they already know what they want, yes. They already know what they want to do afterwards. They often see their studies as a means to an end somewhere. And in Germany you studied once and yes — what do you want to do? No idea, yes. That’s one thing.
I: Whereby I believe that this is also a reflection of society as a whole, that, let’s say, here with us the youth, who often, in school it certainly seems to me, yes, that they are rather somewhat restricted in their considerations, their way of thinking, yes, that they just, with us it’s called bulimic learning, yes. So they instill something in themselves in order to then give it out again at the right time, yes, in order to achieve a grade. But this learning in the sense of internalizing it and also growing from it, yes. And from that, to develop a personality, yes, with goals, yes, with a very concrete idea, that is, I think, also what culturally has, yes, not such a great importance with us, unfortunately, as before.
B: Yes, well, I can understand both. It’s certainly nice, too, so when I started studying, that was even before all this Bachelor’s‑Master’s stuff, although I later did a Master’s, too. But that was also very relaxing. So you could also devote more to your interests somehow. I sat in on a lot of other lectures. I started with law and then I went to, I was really fascinated by psychology. And then I sat in the lecture hall and just listened to psychology. Then I went into the lecture hall and listened to philosophy. That is also very beautiful, yes. That’s no longer possible today.
I: So learning for the sake of learning, yes.
B: Yes, exactly. And then, that, so that I also found very nice. So that, but on the other hand, I mean, I started studying in Trier, yes. The state of Rhineland-Palatinate paid for my education, so the citizens of Rhineland-Palatinate, yes. I almost never went back there, yes. Is it fair now that I just got that there, yes, for free? I think, so sure, I took, yes. Of course, what should I do? Yes, but somehow I think to myself, yes, so that they have now promoted all my interests for years, is now actually not fair. But it was good for me, yes.
I: Yes, well, I think that the state also has a task, yes, to provide a very, very high level of education, yes, and that we do not necessarily have to hide internationally with state institutions and universities.
B: No, we don’t have to. The question is just who pays for it, yes. Should all
I: Well, sure.
B: pay? (unv.) so some bus driver who has nothing to gain from the fact that I’m a lawyer or whatever, yes. (unv.) should he pay for it? Or should the one who benefits from it pay for it? No matter when, whether now immediately or in years. But that’s a fundamental question that has to be asked. Because education is not free, never was free. The only question is who pays for it.
I: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely, of course, sure. That’s then, yeah, the comparison between the private and the public education system and clearly, with one you pay the same only through your tax money, with the public. And if you’re at the private university, then.
B: But not only you. That’s the thing. Not only you
I: Well, sure.
B: But all of them. And there one must ask oneself halt. Should low-income earners or middle-income earners, who don’t have a degree and don’t want to, or don’t want their children to, pay for future dentists and lawyers? That is also a question of justice that is always, never actually asked, because it is always said that education should remain free of charge.
I: What is your opinion on this?
B: My opinion is very differentiated. I think it’s unfair, fundamentally unfair, that the community, that people who have nothing from it, yes, so now, the best example is myself, studied in Rhineland-Palatinate, was practically never again in Rhineland-Palatinate. Although (unv.) with you here (unv.) again there.
I: Finally we get our money back.
B: Yes, no, just not. There too I am only from
I: Yes, I know, yes.
B: to earn money, so to speak. (unv.) and don’t even give anything back. Yes, so that’s just, that’s actually unfair. One simply has to say. Even though I have profited from it myself, so that, that doesn’t seem fair to me, yes. On the other hand, of course, I see the student loans in America, they are insanely over-indebted, the people, at the end of their studies. That’s also bad. So I just want to say, and this is also quite interesting. I don’t even have an opinion on a lot of things, because things are so complex that you really have to say, this is just a difficult situation. Yes, and me, I’m always surprised when people are then so outraged and say: this must remain so and so, education must remain free, this is a mess. And so I’ve seen, yes, Merkel forces me to prostitution, has once demonstrated somehow, I’ve seen once.
I: Oh wow.
B: Yes, because the argument was that she somehow has to pay the semester ticket and now she has to prostitute herself, whatever, otherwise you can’t earn money to pay for it.
I: Absolutely natural, yes.
B: Absolutely (unv.). But I think to myself, how can one be so indignant about such a complex question? Well, I haven’t thought about it enough to (unv.), yes.
I: I think that’s for both, there are, there are good arguments for both positions.
B: So do I, yes.
I: Well, I think that the state also has a task and a responsibility, yes, especially for people who simply wouldn’t have the opportunity because of their background. Yes, so they have a completely different way of thinking and thus a private university, at which they would have to pay their semester fees, yes, 600 €, 800 €, 1,000 €, 1,200 € per month, that is beyond the means of the state.
B: Yes.
I: every performance, yes.
B: Yes, yes, but the question is whether you give it as a gift. It’s not the state that gives it, it’s all the citizens. There is no state at all. So that someone is a gray eminence, that’s us.
I: Absolutely, of course.
B: And should all of them be paid, or should the person who can’t afford it now pay at a later date? That is the question.
I: Absolutely definitely. As I said, I think there are good reasons for both positions. And that’s why I think that’s also very good that there are private universities as well as the state universities. Good, my dear.
B: Yes.
I: You briefly mentioned the topic of Rhineland-Palatinate and Montabaur in passing. And that brings me to a very important and relevant point. There is a date on September 3rd and 4th in Montabaur, where you will give a seminar outside of Munich for the last time this year.
B: Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, there’s another one in October. But actually I’m there, which is quite extraordinary with such a really cool guy, yeah, who’s such a real doer, who also sponsors the, a run in the
I: The Koblenz company run. You’re talking about Bernhard Münz in Montabaur.
B: Yes, exactly.
I: Yes, exactly.
B: Exactly, yes. Cool guy. And he just organized it
I: (unv.), yes.
B: for his entrepreneur friends and so on and already from long hand. And he has also somehow, he found, there was no decent restaurant. So he just founded one himself, where he can receive his people, which is supposed to be very good. And there it is, yes. I’ve heard a lot of good things about it. And in fact, they also have some kind of event rooms. And he has just, he was with me in the seminar and he just made. Have never done. And I am in Montabaur actually. And we also see each other. That is also nice.
I: Absolutely, yes. Yes, Montabaur is a district town in the Westerwald and now you might think you’re in the provinces, but, yes, we not only have an ICE train station, the company 1&1 is also based here. Yes, it comes from here. Ralph Dommermuth, another well-known, world-famous Westerwald man. And yes, in this respect I am of course very much looking forward to your visit and that I can bring you a little bit closer to a small section of the beautiful Westerwald here.
B: Yes, very good. So exactly. Maybe I’ll see you at the seminar, I’d be happy to. That’s just the negotiation seminar, which I actually haven’t given in a long, long time because of Corona. I’ve now re-prepared and really some new stuff. I’m really excited and yes, so that’s why we actually, also because of this Corona thing are, so I don’t want to advertise now, but are actually still a few, I think, two or three places free from less than 20, from 15 or so.
I: Exactly, that’s what I heard.
B: Exactly.
I: And, yes, insofar as our listeners at this point, if you are now early enough, yes, then look at nasher.com, yes, in the events section, in the dates and maybe there is still a last place free. As I said, the last opportunity this year outside of Munich.
B: Great, yes. Thank you for this subtle advertising, but sign up now. Dear.
I: That’s how we Westerwalders are, yes, very subtle, yes. I would say, we stay in contact. We’ll see you here in Montabaur on September 3, 4 at the latest. And I wish you all the best until then.
B: Yes, super, my dear. Thank you very much for the nice interview. See you then.